﻿CNN’s Amanpour
Nancy Pelosi, Beating Attacks Right and Left. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired September 10, 2018 - 13:00:00   ET

My exclusive interview with Nancy Pelosi, the most powerful woman ever elected in America, now beating back attacks from the right and the left. 

She tells me she is staying as long as Trump is president. Also, ahead, Oscar nominated actor Ethan Hawke on directing a new country music biopic and losing himself in a performance.

AMANPOUR: And, introducing four new colleagues to the show. How this diverse, talented group of story tellers will help us to navigate our rapidly changing world.

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christian Amanpour. Now, as a sense of crisis engulfs the White House, Democrats are feeling this might be their chance to retake the House of Representatives in the upcoming midterm elections, which means that Republicans and President Trump could soon face their worst nightmare.

Nancy Pelosi with subpoena power. When she was speaker of the House, Pelosi was third in line to the presidency, the most powerful woman in American history. And she was one of the most effective speakers ever, passing landmark legislation on health care and Wall Street reform among so many other issues, and that through a deeply divided Congress.

The right has spent hundreds of millions of dollars painting her as a radical and rogue liberal. Now, after decades at the top, even young activists are urging her to pass on the mantle from her own party. I sat down with minority leader Nancy Pelosi in her office on Capitol Hill. She tells me that she's not going anywhere just as she appears on the front cover of "TIME" magazine for the very first time. I started by asking her the million-dollar question.

Leader Pelosi, welcome to the program. It is an amazing time for me to be in Washington and to be talking to you. First and foremost, let me ask you about what everybody is asking, who could and how could anyone dare to write such a broadside against the president they serve from inside the administration, maybe even inside the White House? How did you react to that?

REP. NANCY PELOSI, D-CA: I would heard from many Republicans who say the party of Lincoln cannot survive as the party of Trump. His behavior, his dysfunction, his jeopardizing our national security in terms of how we are viewed in the world and how we have abandoned our allies. His abandoning of not only national security but fiscal security in terms of running up the national debt, and the tone on how he acts.

We hear this from Republicans all over and I guess in the White House somebody -- I can't know, we don't know who, whether it maybe we will soon -- just decided that for the good of the country people had to be -- have comfort to know that there was a check on him in the White House.

AMANPOUR: But what does it really mean? Because the debate about this op- ed in "The New York Times" going public from within -- from inside has sparked a whole lot of criticism, in fact, even from people who oppose the president. They say he's subverting the constitution, he or she, the writer is subverting the constitution, that there are constitutional processes if you have this kind of problem with the person you serve. You can go to Congress. You can set in motion all sorts of procedures. What -- where do you come down on that?

PELOSI: I don't think that any individual in the White House writing an anonymous op-ed is subverting the constitution. I think the president may be because of the system of checks and balances, which is the brilliance of our constitution, is not respected by the president. It's hard to think that he respects the first branch of government, Article 1, the legislative branch. But I don't even think he respects the executive branch that much in terms of his behavior.

So, taking the place where the president said, "This is treason and they're subverting the constitution," no, it isn't so. There's a question of the suitability of this person to be president, the people elected him. We have a responsibility to work with him, to get results for the American people. To the extent that the people who were with him are menaced by him is something that we, well, hopefully, in the November elections will have a further check on him because the Republicans in Congress have had nothing to say about this.

AMANPOUR: Well, that's what I was going to ask. You just talked about the co-equal branch of government, the Congress is a co-equal branch of government. And I just wonder whether what your commentary is on, for instance, the current speaker, the outgoing speaker, Paul Ryan, who is not going to seek re-election and the Republican establishment, they are accused of caring more about their own base and their own personal elections than about the presidency or, indeed, the country and the party.

PELOSI: Well, I would make a distinction between the Republicans and Congress because they have been completely delinquent in their duties in terms of oversight of this administration in so many ways. They have tolerated and participated in corruption, cronyism and incompetence. We said in '06, drain the swamp, culture of corruption, cronyism and incompetent. And president hijacked the title, betrayed the mission and there -- it's even worse now because of so much corruption and conflicts of interest within the executive branch.

So I would make a distinction between the Republicans in Congress because they have just -- they've been enablers of all of this. And the established Republicans who I think see and hope for a different outcome in all of this because they do believe, as I said earlier, the party of  Lincoln cannot survive as the party of Trump.

AMANPOUR: So you say they hope for a different outcome. I wonder if that includes losing the House of Representatives. In other words, do you believe that the Democrats will take back the House the midterm elections?

PELOSI: Oh, I do, yes. Well, if the election were held today, that's the only -- we have nine Tuesdays to go until the election and if the election were held today we would win overwhelmingly and women would lead the way.

We have so many excellent women candidates across the country. Women marched and then they ran and now they're running and now they're going to be members of Congress. We're very excited about that. And that will lead the way to our victory. But I do think that there are Republicans out there who -- I'm not saying they support us but I'm saying they're not going to fight us.

AMANPOUR: When you if it was held today, it is said that the Democrats need to win 23 Republican House seats in order to flip the House back to your control. Do you think that is a certainty if the election were held today?

PELOSI: Oh, absolutely. I think it would be a bigger victory. But, again, these are all very close races. People ask me is this a tsunami or is it wave? And I said, in neither case, it's many drops of water and it's all very close. So, it won't be a big margin, it will be small margins in many races that will produce the victory.

AMANPOUR: I'm going to get into the details of these races because there seems to be a sort of insurgency happening even within the Democratic party right now, we've seen in all these special elections and primaries and elsewhere.

But first, I want to mention what I've already mentioned in the introduction to you that for the first time you were on the cover of a national -- an international news magazine. And I say for the first time because even when you shattered what they called the marble ceiling here in 

the Capitol by becoming the first female speaker, somehow they didn't think that was worthy enough to put on the cover of "TIME" magazine. How do you feel seeing this cover finally?

PELOSI: Well, the fact is that at the time I think it was kind of surprising because the next person to become speaker was right on the cover, John Danner, and it was like, they did not understand the historic significance of a woman becoming the third most powerful person in the country, the president, the vice president, speaker of the House, it's a constitutional office. And -- but they didn't.

And I don't think too much about it. But I do think that other women did and it's long overdue. I thought when we pass the Affordable Care Act, expanding health care to so many more millions more people and the rest, that that might get their attention, but it didn't.

But anyway, it's here now and that's nice. But I think a lot of women are -- they're thinking why now? Why did it take so long? You have to ask them.

AMANPOUR: I want to ask you -- frankly, I want to read to you what "TIME" has written partly about your record, that you are one the most consequential political figures of your generation. "It was her creativity, stamina and willpower that drove the defining Democratic 

accomplishments of the past decade from universal access to health care coverage to saving the U.S. economy from collapse, from reforming Wall Street to allowing gay people to openly serve in the military. Her Republican successes ineptitude has thrown her skills into sharp relief."

Now, I'm saying that not just to compliment you and to puff you up but to remind -- 

PELOSI: It's OK. 

AMANPOUR: That's OK too. But to remind that you're not just a trailblazing woman that, in fact, for the Democratic party and for the country you have achieved incredible things. And for that, it appears your thank you is being challenged not just from the Republicans, as they always do use the boogeyman, but from within your own party. You are being challenged by younger generation who say it's time for new blood, it's time for new leadership. You know, we don't necessarily want Nancy Pelosi as the speaker even if we win back control of the House.

PELOSI: Well, I do agree that it's time for new blood and we should move on. And if Hillary Clinton had won and this Affordable Care Act was protected I feel very proprietary about that. I was happy to go my way. We didn't know who would come forward but that's up to the caucus. They give me the honor of serving and it's up to them to choose who comes next. But to have no woman at the table and to have the Affordable Care Act at risk, I say, as long as he's here, I'm here. So, 45. Not to be disrespectful but -- 

AMANPOUR: You're referencing Trump, 45?

PELOSI: Yes. And so, yes. But I've always been opposed -- I think there was one election for leadership that I was not opposed in. So, people like to get started on what they think comes next and that's up to the caucus to decide. But I feel very comfortable about the support I have in the caucus and that I will be the speaker of the House.

AMANPOUR: So you're definitely going to stand and you definitely think you're going to win?

PELOSI: Well, I think it's important for women to see as well because you can't run away from a fight. You're in the arena. So, when some people 

come forward and say, "Well, we should have somebody new." OK. You're in the arena. When the Republicans have such a poverty of ideas that the only thing they can put in their ads is I'm a San Francisco liberal who supports LGBTQ rights, I can take the heat. I don't like implying that's not a good thing, our San Francisco values.

But I want women to know that this isn't easy. Power is never given away and it always has to be fought for. And this is, again, a constitutional office and I feel very confident about the support of my colleagues as well as the fact we will win the election.

AMANPOUR: First and foremost, people are wondering whether this will be, I think you said early on, the beginning of the end, you know, if you win back the House, does this put this president and this administration in the hot seat in terms of accountability? You, on the other hand, have never really talked up the idea of impeachment.

PELOSI: Yes.

AMANPOUR: You didn't want to do it for George Ww. Bush when people were saying, you know, the Iraq war, et cetera, and you don't particularly want to do it now, if I'm reading you correctly.

PELOSI: Well, I don't think that impeachment should be engaged in for political reason but I don't think it should be avoided for a political reason. In other words, if the facts are there, then it takes us to a place. But that is not our priority. Our priority, again, unifying. 

Impeachment is a very divisive approach. Elections should determine who is in office.

If the president has broken the law, he is not above the law. But that remains to be seen. What we're about in our campaign is that we are for the people, for lower health care cause, lowering prescription drug prices, we're for raising paychecks, increasing -- lowering health care costs, 

increasing paychecks by building the infrastructure of America and for cleaning up government to make sure people understand that the people's interests not the special interests are serviced here in the United States Capitol.

And we intend, also, to do what we've asked the Republicans to do, to give us a chance -- to -- members to vote on common sense, gun safety, gun violence prevention, legislation and to protect our dreamers, just to name a few things that wouldn't be on -- you can't ask the Republicans to do 

something and then not do it yourself when you have power.

AMANPOUR: There are many people who wonder whether Democratic led committees in the House will start a whole series of investigations and accountability on this president, on this administration.

PELOSI: Well, in both cases, in terms of what we would affirmatively do in terms of legislation, we have established our -- for the people, lower health care costs, bigger paychecks, cleaner government and -- we're asking -- I'm asking with no presumption, no measuring for drapes, you don't see too many drapes around here anyway, but just to be ready. We have a responsibility to be ready.

So, a task the soon to be chairman, our ranked top Democrats on these committees to work with their committees to establish priorities for us to consider as our consensus priorities to go forward. In the same vein with the oversight, this cannot be scatter shot. We're doing this in a very 

serious, responsible way to say, "We want to seek the truth, the truth about intervention in our elections, which undermines the sacred right of people to vote, under -- oversight of the air our children breathe." And so, that the list goes on. But it has to be prioritized and not scatter 

shot but direct shot to get the job done. It's all about seeking the truth. Where that takes us with the president and his performance remains to be seen.

AMANPOUR: Even the people who criticize the president from within, for instance, this op-ed in "The New York Times" say that, "We are not the left-wing opposition, no. We are not. We believe in much of his agenda. The tax reform stimulus, the deregulation, the strengthening of the military." I mean, you know, the economy seems to be working for the president. He could translate that into votes.

PELOSI: But let me just say that I would characterize your description of his accomplishments differently. I would say the tax bill was not a 

stimulus, it's a tax scam that add $2 trillion to the national debt while giving 83 percent of the benefits to the top 1 percent in our country, giving a tax break to corporations to better tax break to form -- create jobs overseas than here. On the second point, in terms of the -- 

AMANPOUR: Deregulation?

PELOSI: -- deregulation, we call that, we don't want any more regulation than we should have. But what they're doing is removing protections, protections for clean air, clean air our children breathe, clean water, food, safety. You name any subject they have taken down, protections, that were part of the Nixon administration. They're trying to undermine our leadership in California for protecting the environment that even President Reagan supported.

So, it is -- they're going to an extreme place calling it deregulation, it's acting on behalf of their donors at the expense of their children and their future. And so, I don't see there -- their tax bill was not picking up -- if it was such a big political issue, they would stop doing their ads about me and do their ads about their tax bill but it's not working for them because people see that it is not helping out in terms of jobs, the low end employment rate there is, this -- people don't want to be told all the indicators are great so, therefore, your life must be great. No, people need bigger paychecks. They need bigger purchasing power. And they didn't -- they're not getting that from that bill.

So, I don't see -- when you talk about the economy, you have to talk about many more people participating in the prosperity of our country. And one of the most crucial issues to people's own financial security is the health issue, it's a health issue and it's a finance issue. And that's why lowering the price of prescription drugs, lowering the cost of health care is central to their well-being.

AMANPOUR: So, I guess that brings to us Brett Kavanaugh and the hearings and him being President Trump's nominee, second nominee, to the supreme court.

PELOSI: Elections have ramifications in the courts for decades even though a president may only be there for a few years.

AMANPOUR: And there are observers and pundits and legal scholars who believe that the Affordable Care Act could be history state by state and 

eventually come to the supreme court again and get disapproved, unlike the last time. And also, that Roe vs. Wade, the rights of women, could be state by state abolished.

Is that over fear or do you think that there is the political climate in this country do something as radical as dismiss universal health care and dismiss women's rights under Roe vs. Wade?

PELOSI: No, I think that dismissing Roe V Wade, a woman's right to choose, not even about -- it's about contraception as well. People don't realize that. And I'm, you know, Italian-American catholic, big family, five children in six years, joy in our lives, my husband and I, but that isn't up the path for everyone and it it's up to politicians or judges in the court to determine how women and families make those decisions.

So, I'm very protective of a woman's right to choose. And I think it's very much at risk and it's impossible to exaggerate because the president, one of the ways he got the nomination was to agree to a list of judges from those who are opposed to Roe V Wade and LGBTQ, it sorts of goes together, that he would appoint judges and he has said, the president said, "It's a done deed. Roe v. Wade is gone."

And so, everyone who can -- who cares about that should be concerned about Nominee Kavanaugh because he's even, I don't know, ambiguous about contraception. And, of course, access to quality health care is at risk because Republicans are taking to court the benefit of a preexisting condition. This is huge. And 125 million, 130 million families have a preexisting condition, baby born with a heart defect or a child with asthma, any -- name anything, cancer, anything as a preexisting condition. And under the Affordable Care Act, insurance companies had to give affordable insurance to the families.

This administration and the Republican attorneys general across the country are taking it to court. The Federal Government has said, "We're not protecting that." Imagine to take away access because of a preexisting condition that affects 130 million families.

AMANPOUR: That's why I ask whether you think they would dare to do it.

PELOSI: Not only theirs to do it but it's who they are. It's who they are. They do not believe in a public role in terms of access to affordable health care. They don't believe in Medicare, it should to wither on the vine. They slash $1.4 trillion from Medicaid in the president's budget, he said to cover his tax cuts for the rich. 

So, it's a philosophical ideological difference here.

AMANPOUR: So, do you -- I mean, at the hearings, very contumaciously Senator Cory Booker of the Democrats essentially broke senate procedures for the judiciary committee and released some confidential e-mails, which raised questions about Judge Kavanaugh's acceptance of settled law and precedent.

Do you think it was important to break those rules in this case or do you think that opens a whole other can of worms?

PELOSI: I'm not absolutely sure that Senator Booker broke the law. I think the night before they said it was OK to go forward with items, but that's neither hearing or there (ph). The point is, that the Republicans are departing from any sense of decency and responsible to the American people by saying, "We do not want to see all of these documents that will tell us something." If there's nothing to hide, release the documents. 

Why are they so protective of hiding those documents? That is the violation of the regular order that we should be paying attention to.

But I do not -- I think that in these hearings, the nominee, Kavanaugh, has not come off well at all. I mean, he responds but he doesn't answer. And he is -- I think, I have no assurance that he has any faith to establish law, stare decisis. And I think the -- both the Affordable Care Act and the woman's -- Roe V Wade are there.

But more -- as equally as important at all that this nominee is there to protect this president. He has very clearly said that a president shouldn't be challenged even though he was vile in his challenge to President Clinton. You may want to read his memos on that subject. And now, it's like the president should be above the law, we shouldn't bother him with this, he's a very busy man. And I think that undermines that rule of law that no one is above the law and any system of checks and balances. If the court is going to say the president should not answer for his behavior.

AMANPOUR: So, from where I sit and I'm sure from where many people sit, it's very hard to know how this country can come back together and heal. 

There's so much partisanship, so much tribalism --

PELOSI: No, it can.

AMANPOUR: -- so much poison. Well, you're optimistic that it can. Why do you think your party, as we've seen in these elections right now, is moving further and further to the left, further and further to the populist end of Democratic agenda?

PELOSI: But I don't even accept that characterization, with all due respect. In a couple of racists, districts like mine, yes, progressives are winning. And progressive will always win in a district like mine --

AMANPOUR: But in New York, Massachusetts. Yes.

PELOSI: District like mine, New York, a district like mine. But across the country, I think you see something different. I think you see -- and respectful of those results who was elected, the job title -- I tell the candidates, "Your job title and your job description are one of the same, 

reprehensive. And the candidates who are running at other districts will be representative of their district." As far as the Democratic party always having this, shall we say, creative tension, we've always had that. We've always had that and that's part of the dynamism. We're not a rubber stamp.

AMANPOUR: Does it worry you that the idea of centrism, at least in these big elections and they're under the microscope, whether it's in Florida for governor. The Democratic candidate who touted herself as somebody who could work across the aisles didn't win, and it was definitely two much more -- you know, two people on the polls of their party who won, both Democrat and Republican.

PELOSI: I don't think that it's on the polls. I don't -- I can't speak to the Republicans. That may be. I don't where -- I don't think we've seen the polls of the Republican party. But in terms of the Democrat, the one thing that brings us together in the Congress and in the country as 

Democrats is our commitment to American's working families and finding solutions to, again, lower the health care cost, increase their paychecks and have then have faith in government. And that isn't a Democratic message, that's in an across the board message and that's where we have common ground.

AMANPOUR: So, you're not worried about sort of a tea party insurgency in your party?

PELOSI: Not at all, not at all. I come here as a San Francisco liberal. They spent hundred million dollars describing in session, but I -- 

AMANPOUR: Yes. But you've proven your -- across aisle (ph) credentials.

PELOSI: Well, yes. When you come, you find -- try to find common ground. And when you can't, as I've said, you stand your ground but you -- there are some places you won't find common ground. You'll never come agreement on a woman's rights to choose, right? You either support it or you don't. 

But there are many other areas where you can find common ground and we should try to find it.

But let me just say on that score, you have to bring a level of humility to the table because you have to listen, to hear other people's point of view. 

And when I send representatives to the budget table and the rest, I say, "Be agnostic as to where the solution springs from. You know the values and principles of our party in terms of America's working families. But if a solution comes forth that grows the economy, to create good paying jobs and reduce the national debt, we don't care if it's right, left, center or wherever it comes from, we're there to go forward with that."

And so, I think that there's reason to be very hopeful.

AMANPOUR: Everybody is talking about this wave being the unprecedented female wave --

PELOSI: Yes.

AMANPOUR: -- the last similar but still smaller was in 1929, and that came after the famous Anita Hill hearing -- 

PELOSI: That's right.

AMANPOUR: -- on Capitol Hill, which we all remember. How do you translate what's happening right now, the record number of women, particularly in your party who are running and to what do you attribute it if not to President Trump and the moment we live in?

PELOSI: I believe that this is sort of a very transformative time because women have seen how policy affects their lives. Women marched, it wasn't anything organized by us, it was organic, it was spontaneous. We turned out and it flushed wonderful numbers all over the world to say, "We want to have a voice in our future."

Martin Luther King said, "The ballot, legislation, your life." That people saw the connection. And in the second march, people saw the connection between -- and said about their issues, their values, their ethics and the vote, connecting it to the vote, and you have to run, you know, you have to get in the arena. It's tough. People -- who is a bigger target than I am. But it's worth it, you have to get in there and fight. And women have seen that.

Some we recruited, encouraged to say, "Here's a way you can do this,": others self-recruited. So, it is about women, whether they're young women coming out of college, coming out of the military, women like me coming out of the kitchen to the Congress, from housewife to House Speaker, anything is possible for them. But nothing is more wholesome for America, for our system of government and politics than increased participation of women in our leadership and participation in our government.

And I honestly believe, if we decrease the role of money and politics and increase the level of civility in politics, we'll even have many more women who will go forward and enter the arena, win the fight, make a difference. And it will all happen in the Congress where we will observe the 100th anniversary of women having the right to vote.

When that happened, they said women is given the right to vote, but they weren't given. They fought, they marched, they left home, they were starved, they starved, they did everything to get the right to vote with such courage. And that, we have to honor that sacrifice as we continue to expand opportunities for women. When women succeed, America succeeds.

AMANPOUR: And on that note, Leader Pelosi, thank you so much for joining.

PELOSI: Thanks. My pleasure.

AMANPOUR: And tune in later for my interview with another powerful Woman in Washington, President Trump's counselor, Kellyanne Conway
